I’m sorry, but the phobia or contagion that has swept California (and the nation) is completely baffling to me. I don’t understand how you go to the ballot box and say we should discriminate against this class of people. I do understand from a religious standpoint that some religious institutions would not want to marry gay couples. That’s fine. On the other hand, from a state standpoint, the state should not be in the business of institutionalizing discrimination.
From Balkinization:
The following appears today (in slightly edited form) on the New York Times Subject to Debate website, along with contributions from Kenji Yoshino and Eugene Volokh:
Today’s federal district court decision striking down California’s same-sex marriage ban may or may not be upheld on appeal. But it shows why it matters what district courts do, even though the Supreme Court will have the last word. That Court may uphold state bans on same-sex marriage, but the district court’s opinion will make that harder to do.
District Judge Vaughn Walker turned in a virtuoso performance, taking the obvious weaknesses of his position as author of an opinion that was sure to be appealed, and turning them into strengths.
District court conclusions of law always get examined anew by the appeals courts, first the federal Courts of Appeals and, if it can be persuaded to take the case, the Supreme Court. There’s no reason to feel confident that there are five votes on the Supreme Court to legalize same-sex marriage throughout the United States. (When I try to count the votes of which I’m sure, I have trouble getting to one.) District courts do, however, get to find facts. And appellate courts, because they don’t get to see the witnesses and assess their credibility, are supposed to accept the facts as the trial court found them.
So if the Supreme Court reverses the district court’s decision that same-sex couples have a right to marry, it will have to do it in the teeth of Walker’s factual findings that same-sex marriage is good for gay people and the children they raise (one out of five same-sex couples in California are raising children), that there are no discernible differences between same-sex and opposite-sex couples, that “domestic partnerships” offer fewer benefits than marriage and irrationally stigmatize same-sex relationships as inferior, that recognition of same-sex couples’ right to marry does no detectable harm to heterosexual marriages, and that the campaign for Proposition 8, which outlawed same-sex marriage in California, relied on prejudice and vicious antigay stereotypes, such as the idea that gay people are dangerous to children.
Judge Walker carefully avoided resting his holding on any controversial proposition of law, such as the idea that gay people should be regarded as a specially protected minority under the Fourteenth Amendment. Instead, he relied on law already laid down by the Supreme Court. He held that Proposition 8 lacked a rational basis, because the “facts” that were invoked in its defense were manifestly false. His job was made easier by the remarkable incompetence of Proposition 8’s defenders in managing their listed expert witnesses, most of whom never testified at all. An appeals court that wants to ignore his findings of fact – something that can be done only if the trial court’s findings are plainly erroneous – will find very little support in the record.
The Supreme Court gets to say what the law is. But it has to accompany its judgment with a reasoned opinion. I don’t envy the judge who has to write the opinion overturning Walker’s decision, while treating these findings of fact with the deference that is normally appropriate for appeals courts.
One step closer….
We restrict marriage in all kinds of ways.
A mother cannot marry her son.
A man cant marry two women.
Siblings cant marry each other.
A father cant marry his daughter.
Two women cant marry three men.
A grandmother cannot marry her grandson.
A man cant marry his dog. (yes there are people who want to change the law to allow this)
Are these discriminatory also?
I too find it baffling. Most often I think – “why do you care”? I read that the CA law mentions we need the law to promote procreation. Please. We have plenty of that. Shall we force them?
This also baffles me. Why do conservatives say “The liberals and progressives want the government to control every aspect of our lives because to them government knows best.” Yet in this case it's the conservatives dictating marriage laws. Because they know best? If their religion oposes it – fine. Yet that is why we have separation of church and state. I find conservatives like to tear down those walls as often as they can. I'm not saying you have to like it. But why dictate what others can do? Just mind your own business and get out of their bedrooms.
Baffling it is when liberals want to dictate health care decisions — banning transfats, taxing sugar, levying huge fines on tobacco companies………….
…….yet homosexuals have a life expectancy about 20 years less than the rest of the population and liberals seem to be just fine with labeling homosexuality 'just another lifestyle choice' instead of the killer that it is.
Ah so you advocate telling people how to live because its bad for them. Conservatives don't do that according to them.
Contrary to popular misconception, conservatives actually do favor protecting the public health by preventing the spread of communicable diseases, preventing suicide, etc.
In addition, the Encyclopedia of Serial Killers by Michael Newton reports the following regarding the issue of homosexuality and murders:
“ Homosexual slayers clearly have no monopoly on violence, but it is true that their crimes often display extremes of “overkill” and mutilation… On balance, it seems fair to say that while homosexuals sometimes fall prey to “gay bashing” violence by bigoted “straights,” they are far more likely to be murdered by another homosexual than in a random hate crime”
Liberals are afraid of offending homosexual voters if they tell the truth about homosexuality. They seem to have no problem with letting them die.
Sorry you lost me on this. Gay's getting married somehow makes them more prone to being killers? Or it will hasten their deaths?
Perhaps you should watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rixkck8QnjY
Life expectancy 20 years less?? Source please–If you name a real scientist, I'll eat my hat.
Aw, hell, my secret's out! But I'm coming for you next!!!! Is there a point here?
There are actually genetic reasons for most of what you have listed. As far as marrying a dog, i'm not even going to talk about how that lowers your argument to the of not worthy of your intellect.
Genetic reasons?
C'mon, you know these prohibitions were in place long before anyone knew what a gene was.
And the question about the dog is legit because there are people who want a change in our law to accomodate their idea of what a marriage should be, same as with homosexuals — they want marriage redefined to suit them.
people understood the genetic consequences of marrying your sister or your mother for multiple millennia. This is why it's taboo. You don't have to see too many babies that with two heads and an IQ of an empty soap dish to understand something is wrong.
As I mentioned before, probably a couple years ago on this blog, if civil unions came with the same privileges, legal privileges, that marriage does, I would be in favor of calling the union of gays and lesbians a civil union.
Dr Thompson wrote:
“people understood the genetic consequences of marrying your sister or your mother for multiple millennia. This is why it's taboo. “
What utter nonsense.
Provide ANY evidence that 'understanding of genetic consequences' stretches back 'many millenia'.
Put that one back in your hat where it came from, my friend.
These prohibitions are thousands of years old and are largely religious in origin.
You know it and I know it.
The point is that society does have the right to restrict marriage.
Dr Thompson wrote:
“I don’t understand how you go to the ballot box and say we should discriminate against this class of people.”
Would you favor 'ending discrimination' against pedophiles as well? They would tell you that they just cant help the way they feel, they are just naturally attracted to children. Can they help it if they were 'born that way'?
Sexual desire is something that is within our control. A married woman can choose to only be attracted to her husband, or she can choose to let herself flirt, have an affair and be promiscuous. Her actions and thoughts are within her own control.
Don't give us this 'well they just cant help it, that's who they are' line of propaganda.
Our thoughts and our actions are subject to our will. Homosexual behavior is something that is chosen.
A pedofiles forces his will upon children. You have a big problem putting them in the same discussion. The reason I see you and alot of people are against this is the fact you are afraid someone is going to take something away from you. Something that you have earned or deserve that someone else without your permission is trying to take away. But as you mentioned before that homosexuals live 20 years less and they can't procreate with each other then what are you afraid of? what will they take from you that you feel is yours alone? If they take your wife then okay. If they take your kids then okay. But since they can't take either things then why are you so angry with allowing someone else to have a piece of paper showing how they feel about that person. I bet you would find that more gay couples once married are more devoted and had a lower divorce rate than straight couples. Then what would you say?
Even the tribal people in the third world didn't marry their mothers or sisters or brothers. There is not law addressing this with these people. So there is your millenia evidence. There shouldn't have to be laws but they were written on fear and to protect children from being forced into marriage like they did with the Mormons.
So why do think is was taboo? Just cuz? You need to get out more. Look at National Geographic. REad something that wasn't ghost written for Hannity or Beck.
From Wiki:
The anthropologist Claude Lévi-Strauss developed a general argument for the universality of the incest taboo in human societies. His argument begins with the claim that the incest taboo is in effect a prohibition against endogamy, and the effect is to encourage exogamy. Through exogamy, otherwise unrelated households or lineages will form relationships through marriage, thus strengthening social solidarity. That is, Lévi-Strauss views marriage as an exchange of women between two social groups. This theory is based in part on Marcel Mauss's theory of The Gift, which argued
that exchange in primitive societies consists not so much in economic transactions as in reciprocal gifts, that these reciprocal gifts have a far more important function than in our own, and that this primitive form of exchange is not merely nor essentially of an economic nature but is what he aptly calls 'a total social fact', that is, an event which has a significance that is at once social and religious, magic and economic, utilitarian and sentimental, jural and moral.[23]
It is also based on Lévi-Strauss's analysis of data on different kinship systems and marriage practices documented by anthropologists and historians. Lévi-Strauss called attention specifically to data collected by Margaret Mead during her research among the Arapesh. When she asked if a man ever sleeps with his sister, Arapesh replied “No we don't sleep with our sisters. We give our sisters to other men, and other men give us their sisters.” Mead pressed the question repeatedly, asking what would happen if a brother and sister did have sex with one another. Lévi-Strauss quotes the Arapesh response:
What, you would like to marry your sister? What is the matter with you anyway? Don't you want a brother-in-law? Don't you realize that if you marry another man's sister and another man marries your sister, you will have at least two brothers-in-law, while if you marry your own sister you will have none? With whom will you hunt, with whom will you garden, who will you visit?[24]
By applying Mauss's theory to data such as Mead's, Lévi-Strauss proposed what he called alliance theory. In “primitive” societies, he argued, marriage is not fundamentally a relationship between a man and a woman, it is a transaction involving a woman that forges a relationship — an alliance — between two men.[25] His Elementary Structures of Kinship takes this as a starting point and uses it to analyze kinship systems of increasing complexity found in so-called primitive societies, that is, those not based on agriculture, class inequalities, and centralized government.
This theory was debated intensely by anthropologists in the 1950s. It appealed to many because it used the study of incest taboos and marriage to answer more fundamental research interests of anthropologists at the time: how can an anthropologist map out the social relationships within a given community, and how do these relationships promote or endanger social solidarity?[26][27] Nevertheless, anthropologists never reached a consensus, and with the Vietnam War and the process of decolonization in Africa, Asia, and Oceania, anthropological interests shifted away from mapping local social relationships.
Although many anthropologists reject the universailty of alliance theory most accept Lévi-Strauss' argument that the incest taboo is related to the preference for and advantages of exogamy. Most anthropologists and sociologists today believe that nuclear family incest avoidance can be explained in terms of the ecological, demographic, and economic benefits of exogamy.[28]
Dr Thompson cites
“The anthropologist Claude Lévi-Strauss developed a general argument for the universality of the incest taboo in human societies………Through exogamy, otherwise unrelated households or lineages will form relationships through marriage, thus strengthening social solidarity. “
Nowhere in there is any support for your theory: “people understood the genetic consequences of marrying your sister or your mother for multiple millennia. This is why it's taboo. “
If there is any reference to your 'genetics' theory, please point it out.
btw I don't even have cable (never have) and so I don't watch Hannity or Beck. Save your mistaken generalizations for someone who will put up with such vacant thinking.
Margaret wrote:
“You have a big problem putting them (pedophiles) in the same discussion (with homosexuals).”
No, I don't have a problem with it at all.
Both groups want to argue that their sexual practices should be accepted by everyone because 'they can't help the way they feel'.
I don't buy it.
I don't care if a pedophile 'feels' attracted to a child or not, that doesn't mean that I must accept the resultant behavior and honor it as 'normal' or 'healthy' or 'just an alternate lifestyle'.
Liberal hypocrisy is quite evident.
Liberals want to tell us that one's sexual practices are 'a private matter' and 'nobody's business' but then they turn around and want to force everyone to agree with them publicly about their sexual preference.
ECT: I’m sorry, but the phobia or contagion that has swept California (and the nation) is completely baffling to me.
Baffling? Really? Since the beginning of human culture, we don’t have any history of a major society promoting same sex marriage until recently. No major, traditional religion supports same sex marriage. Every state that has a vote on changing marriage laws has voted no. So, it’s strange that you would consider California so unusual.
ECT: I don’t understand how you go to the ballot box and say we should discriminate against this class of people.
Prop 8 adds to the California Constitution this definition of marriage: “only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.”
The law doesn't state that gays can't marry. The law doesn’t discriminate against homosexuals who have the exact same right to marry someone of the opposite sex as heterosexuals. The law does reflect sex discriminatrion which has not been unconstitutional (women don’t sign up for the draft).
True, that men and women with same sex desires are affected differently but so are Muslims or fundamentalist Mormons who want to marry more than one spouse.
ECT:”On the other hand, from a state standpoint, the state should not be in the business of institutionalizing discrimination.”
To make a law is to discriminate. In California, the state provides robust c ivil union laws that provide same sex couple with similar privileges to heterosexual married and unmarried couples.
One may believe that that has no place in endorsing any relationship. However, encouraging heterosexual couples to have children in a marital union is beneficial to society. To discourage brothers and sisters from marrying carries some benefit to society. The state interest in marriage has always been about the children.
I don’t know of any interest the state has in encouraging or discouraging same sex unions.
Quick note on the incest debate:
1. The taboos have mainly been against father/daughter and mother /son incest. Of course, in Egpyt, we have generations of pharaohs that were the result of brother/sister incest. Cousin/cousin and uncle/niece marriages are still very common in many societies today.
2. Following the reasoning of the court, incest lews may also be invalid. I haven’t read the California decision but I have studied the Massachusetts case. I believe that both court spend a lot time coming to the conclusion that procreation was not a good reason for restricting marriage. The Massachusetts court concluded that the main purpose of marriage was for mutual support. They even noted that sex was not a significant in marriage. So, following the current court logic on marriage, incest is a non issue and certainly a none issue for two brothers or two sisters who want to marry.
TCB –
Where have you been? I have missed your thoughtful insight even if it is from the right.
Here's the court's ruling. Sorry I didn't post it originally with the story. I had it. I guess I was distracted.